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Noam Levinberg is a veteran mastering engineer and the founder of Safari Pedals, which has quickly become one of the most talked about new plug-in companies in recent times.
In this episode, you'll learn about:
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Credits:
Guest: Noam Levinberg
Host: Travis Ference
Editor: Stephen Boyd
Theme Music: inter.ference
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There was something in me that was really wanting to kind of get out and
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express myself and do wild plugins. That's mastering
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engineer Noam Levenberg, the man behind safari pedals. Safari pedals
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has become one of the most talked about plugin companies around. Their unique guitar
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pedal inspired interface has brought the fun of wildly spinning knobs right
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into our daws. In this episode, Noam shares his process for taking a plugin
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from idea to final release. What I like doing is
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starting from the end and not from the beginning. And
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what I mean by that is. Why he chose to echo a modern music release
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schedule by dropping a new plugin every month. It matches
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today's kind of pace, and it's 100%
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inspired by artists and musicians. That I respect the
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importance of creating something that draws a reaction from the user or
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listener. It gives you some sort of reaction, like, you like it, you don't
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like it. The first few seconds, for most people, I think, would probably lead to
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either buying it or not. And why he chose to walk away from a salaried
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audio gig to start safari pedals. And I had to trust my gut
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feeling and just do what I love, which is
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something that a lot of times is like the opposite of what everybody's
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telling you to do. This is a fun one. We hit it all from plugins
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to commercial studios and the current state of audio knowledge on the Internet.
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Stick around for my interview with Noam Levenberg.
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Boutique plugin companies like safari popping up these days, most of
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them were started by talented engineers and mixers that are
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kind of probably still, like, midway through their
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career. Right. We're not talking about people with, like, 40 years of experience. We're talking
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about, like, ten or 15. They're in it right now.
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And I just see so many people loving these small plugins,
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and I'm not seeing as much love for the
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legacy brands that we all grew up with.
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Do you feel like there's, like, new blood in this industry? Is it a revolution
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of plugins right now? Why has everybody got a cool plugin
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company now? It's a really interesting topic to talk about, and it's
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something that I've been thinking about for a long time now. A
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bunch of things led to this situation, in my opinion,
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and I think it's a really good change in the industry.
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I think that the biggest thing that led to
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this new rise of a lot
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of small companies is the fact that technology wise,
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plugins are way easier to program than ever
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before because of juice framework, which is
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a framework made for audio processing, which is
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based on C Plus plus, which is what everything is written on in
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terms of plugins and stuff. And it's just way
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easier to create plugins these days. And that
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combined with the fact that the whole creator economy and
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people now have more access to tools that we
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didn't have early on. So I think when I look back to
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my early career, when the computer kind of came into the
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studio, yes, you had
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some plugins. You had like the q ten from waves. I
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remember that being, like, shocking. I remember being
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shocked by having ten bands, being like, what can I do with
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ten bands? That's crazy. True. I also
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remember having a lot of issues with the computer and
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bugging out about space and stuff, and that was like
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a really expensive, I don't know, like g four. I think it was a g
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four computer that was worth a couple
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of. Couldn't imagine having a
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laptop and just running pro tools on a laptop or
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anything even remotely similar to that. And I think that
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today people have much better access to technology
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tools and cheaper in terms of
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hardware, which leads them to have more
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space in their budget to get creative with plugins
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and other cool tools. You know what I mean? It's totally true.
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The cost ratio between buying hardware,
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gear and plugins is like, obviously massive,
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especially when you talk about using UAD, for example. I can
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have a fair child on every channel for $300 or whatever they want to
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charge for it. So, yeah, that is true. Do you think that there's,
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I think about early audio
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development? Most of the big breakthroughs, I think,
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were they were done with or
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by users. Think about like Les Paul or
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like, you know, just game changing
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devices, and then you've got people that come in like Rupert
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neve, really just electronics and technical side. Do you think
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you need to be an end user to kind of have the
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aha moment and then you got to bring in the brains
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to expand on it? I think that's a good question, and it's
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not a yes and no answer, because there are people
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from both camps. I mean, my camp is
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obviously the end user camp,
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so I don't have a background in programming or
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anything similar to that. And I feel
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like there still is some sort of
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gap between the two. So when I want
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to build a product or a plugin, I
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kind of need to go through a bunch of
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loops in order to even explain
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myself to a programmer, to say what I'm looking for
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and what I want it to sound like. And the other side
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doesn't always fully get what we're talking about. Because
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we might be technical as engineers, but not as technical
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as developers. Right. So when you say something has a
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character or something has even like, oh, I want it
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to saturate. Okay, what is a saturator? Obviously
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that means distortion, but then there's like a million different ways to
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make something distort. And then it's a long journey.
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Yeah. And I feel like the best kind of
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goal is to get to a point where either
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there's two people and they're having a conversation.
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And what I mean by that is like an end user and then a
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programmer and they can kind of create
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something together. Or there's these type
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of superhumans that I've met, a
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few that can just do everything, and that's
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just like a next level thing. It's kind of like when there's like a
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producer who can play all the instruments and mix, and you're like,
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oh, that guy. That's insane.
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Yeah. So there's like an equivalent in the plugin word, like somebody
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like Mir, for example, who's like a friend of mine who
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has a company called Modelix. So he's like
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amazing piano player, but then also an amazing
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programmer and an engineer and like a bunch of other things.
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That's amazing. He has it all, I guess. What's the process
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of determining whether a plugin
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is working for you? Obviously
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you're going through different versions. You're probably using it in your own work, maybe sharing
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it with some friends. Take one of your plugins that's out, maybe like gorilla drive,
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right? Yeah. What was the process like getting that
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to market from the audio standpoint? Like, how many
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iterations of the plugin did you go through? I think I'm still
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learning the process, to be honest, and I'm trying to improve it
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in general. I will say that I did get to a point right now
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that I feel like is kind of a sweet spot in terms
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of the way it works. And
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basically what I like doing is starting from the
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end and not from the beginning. And what I mean by that
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is I'll usually sketch out the gui
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myself before having anything. Okay. So I'll
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just paint a picture and try and kind of decide where I
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want the knobs and what I want them to look like and
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kind of match whatever I have in my
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head to a picture. And I think that really helps my
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process because once you do that, you realize like,
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oh, there's not enough space for like a blend knob. Maybe I should
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make the knob smaller. But then I want
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it to look a certain way. And by the end of
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it, you kind of have like a visual representation of
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something that you want. And what I like
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doing after that is I actually show it around. I showed it around to
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a bunch of people and try to explain them what I wanted to do.
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And I look at people's faces when I do it, and
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just friends and other engineers and stuff, and I want to
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see they understand the concept of the plugin
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before it even lands on an actual
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audio file. Right. That's kind of the beginning. And
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I will say that the gorilla drive was the first one I did, and
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I didn't do that on the first one. And I kind of learned
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as I went along. But some of them did have some
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major changes done to them, following what
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people said. Because a lot of times you have something in your head, you're like,
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oh yeah, of course this tone knob is going to react this way, but then
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when you ask somebody else, he's like, what does a tone knob do? And you're
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like, oh, yeah, it
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doesn't say. So maybe I should label it some way.
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So a good example for that is like, I'm going to release next month.
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I don't know when people are going to listen to this, but in late
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October, early November, there's going to be a compressor coming out. And I
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have a knob there called speed, and
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it's a long thing, but I won't get into it right now. But the whole
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idea is to link the attack and release in certain
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ways that fit the ratio of the compressor. That's cool.
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Yeah, it's a pretty fun compressor to play
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around with. That's fun. But when I showed it around to friends, they didn't really
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get it. They were like, what do you mean, speed? Where is this going? So
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what I did was I kind of drew this thing where you can
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see slow and fast, and it kind of
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represents it in a visual way. Those kind of things really help
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me. Nice. But then after that, what I usually do in
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terms of developing the plugin is
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I'll take that gui and then I'll show it to
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the developer that I'm working with, which is usually a guy
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called David, who's a super talented programmer.
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He's a freelancer, basically, and we'll go through the features and
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stuff. And something that David is a genius
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because of this thing is
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instead of me explaining to him what I want,
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I basically have sort of like a back office of sorts
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of plugins. So I have a library of
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compressors and eqs and a bunch of other things
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that I can make it sound any way I want
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on my end. It looks terrible. Like, the
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Gui is very non user friendly. It kind of looks like
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a mix of, I don't know, like a bunch of stuff, right.
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But it's a tool. It's a tool, and I can basically
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do whatever I want with that, and then I can kind of send it
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the vids way with the Gui, and
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he takes the two and makes it one. That's awesome.
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That's like a very long answer
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to your question. You said
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speed talking about that compressor plugin, and I
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immediately thought to myself, I bet that's controlling attack and
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release at the same time in some kind of
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musical context, which kind of made me think about the idea
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of, like, you're making sonic choices based on your
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taste and your musicality. So
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what you choose to do with an EQ curve could
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be musical to you and not to me, in the same way that
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some people prefer this EQ over that EQ in the analog
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realm. Do you think your experience as a master engineer
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working in a bunch of different styles kind of has
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developed your taste in a manner where
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you might have a musical taste for
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your choices that maybe fits the broad range
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of ears out there? Does that make sense? It's kind of a weird
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question. Yes and no. I mean, yes, 100% yes.
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I feel like the subject you're touching on, I think, is
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the change that we're seeing in terms of the small companies and stuff. Yeah,
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because if you look to the early days
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of plugins, it was mainly kind of a
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utilitarian device or like a very
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technical device where like you have, if you take like an
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EQ, for example, you have like a frequency, a q and. And a
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gain knob. And that EQ either is trying
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to sound as transparent as possible, which a lot of the early
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digital plugins tried to achieve, or it
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has a sound, but the sound is usually kind of modeled after
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one particular outboard EQ that
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everybody wants, like a pulltech or like an SSL or something. And
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I feel like we got to a point where everybody has
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all those tools. It's built into all the programs.
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You get it for free. Sometimes it's just there for everyone.
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And I feel like that's a great thing, because now we're at a point
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where we can really go crazy. And that's kind
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of what I was aiming for with safari is, to answer your
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question, it has, like, a sound. It's tailored
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to the sounds that I like, and I hope other
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people like, but it feels to me more like, I don't mean
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to sound full of myself, but to me it feels more
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like an artist releasing music these days than
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a company trying to create an EQ
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that works for everyone. Yeah, I
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feel inspired, and I like other people doing that same thing. Like,
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when I open up a plugin and it has a specific
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paste that somebody put in there, I feel that
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is much more inspiring and fun to work with than
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these kind of very
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professional and bland sounding plugins. Yeah, that's
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just my opinion. Yeah, I think
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a lot of the engineers or mixers that I know that have done a
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plugin, it's somehow related to
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them wanting to do something that fits into their
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workflow. So it's like exactly what you're talking about. It's like, this is very
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specific to the way that I like to work, and it's kind of cool.
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So I'm going to share it with other people and if they like it, that's
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cool. If you don't like it, that's cool. So I
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think it's an interesting comparison, the artist releasing
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music thing, because, yeah, I like that. I like that idea.
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Makes me want to make a plugin. I feel like, as an
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engineer, to be honest, up to the point where I released the
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plugins, I didn't have this concept in my mind, but once I released
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it, I kind of felt like an artist because it was like
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I worked on this thing for a bunch of months and
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nobody kind of knew about it. And then I released it. And
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sort of similar to artists releasing their
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first kind of album, they're always
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kind of really keen on releasing. And then they usually think
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that, oh, the world's going to kind of listen to this
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great album that I've been working on for months now. And
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usually the reaction is way slower in terms of
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exposure and getting reactions from people and getting
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plays and stuff. And I felt the same way. I was like, the plugins
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are out, just out into the abyss
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and nobody cared. It was like
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just like two website views per day for the
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first week or something, and it took time.
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It still is like a small kind of
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exposure. But, yeah, it was a really interesting experience for
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me because I swear to God, I looked back at all
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those albums that I made with indie musicians
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releasing their first album and I felt like, oh, I have a
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much better understanding of what you went through. You know what I mean? Yeah,
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totally. I feel that way about the podcast sometimes. And, yeah, when you
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start putting something out there, you start to relate more with these
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quote clients that you've maybe mixed or mastered for over the
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years and you start to feel what that journey is like.
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But something that I've noticed that you do, that maybe this is a little
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inspired by this parallel to releasing
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music. You've been consistently putting plugins out, like
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every two or three months. I feel like you've been moving fast. You keep
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giving people something new every month. Every month? It is
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every month. I didn't want to say every month because that feels a little crazy,
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but I know it's been fast. Is that partially inspired
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by the Spotify release? You
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got to keep giving people stuff, keep spreading word. Yeah, you're bang
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on. I mean, I felt like that was a strategy I wanted
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to take early on. I didn't know if I could make
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it that fast, but I planned on doing that
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before I even started releasing the first plugin. And I feel
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like it matches today's kind of
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pace and it's 100% inspired
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by artists and musicians that I respect that release music
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on a constant basis. And I feel like a lot of times you feel
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that movement from artists or even from podcasts as
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well. There are a few podcasts that when you see the
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amount of releases, you feel like you want to be part
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of that kind of wave of things happening.
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Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. I mean, I guess as you're
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releasing more and more, I talk about on the podcast all the time, you're growing
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with every plugin. What you've learned over the last
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year, putting out five plugins, you've probably accelerated years
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of growth that other people who have just done like one plugin a
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year. I get what you're saying. I think that a
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big part of it also relates to my experience as kind of
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a music facilitator of sorts, somebody
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that was around a lot of musicians and was around a lot
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of creators. And you kind of get
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this sense of, like, I could spend
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another even year on a specific
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project, or I can release it
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and kind of see what people
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reactions are and then kind of try and
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improve after releasing it. And I think that's another
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amazing thing that plugins have, that even music doesn't have.
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Just for example, I released the fucks echo chorus and then I got
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like 20 emails of people saying, like, why isn't
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there a width knob? I wish there was a width knob and
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I added a width knob and it's there now. That's awesome. I
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guess I could have thought about it earlier, but I feel
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like as long as you don't do something terrible and release it. It's
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better to just go with the flow, release something that you
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feel is right early on and then change it if
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needed. And also kind of, like you said,
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learn for the next plugin and kind of get
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more. It's also like a business strategy
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because I get a better sense of what the customers like and
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what they don't like. So the flamingo verb, for example, is my best
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seller. So I'm thinking about making another reverb.
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It's a lot of really good insights, I feel.
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Yeah, you give instant feedback. That's something I always tell artists, like,
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put a couple of songs out before you spend all this money and time
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making a record. What if your fans really love it when
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it's piano, when it's broken down and they don't like it when
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it's heavy? You get that feedback when something's out in the
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world. I agree with you so much. And I also feel like, I don't
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know, I have this whole theory about intuition and how
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music should be intuition based.
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And what I mean by that is, that's how I used to mix
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when I was doing a lot of mixing, I would try to kind of
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get to a point where the song as a song as
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a whole sounds pretty good after like 30
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minutes of mixing. And then obviously it takes more time
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to kind of hone on different instruments and finish the mix.
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But you're looking at a broad picture of how the audience
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would look at it. I try to get that same approach with the
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plugins because you know how it is. It's the same thing with
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anything like inspired, based. Where you see a plugin,
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you click on it, it gives you some sort of reaction, like you
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like it, you don't like it. The first few seconds, for most people, I think
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would probably lead to either buying it or not. Oh, yeah. And it's the
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same for sure with music. Like, you hear the first few seconds
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and you get attached to it or you want to skip the
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song. Yeah, I mean, I have definitely demoed a plugin
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that has just been perfect and just really
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exciting for the thing that I was like, oh, I'm going to try this plugin,
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and then probably never used it again, but bought it immediately because it
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gave me everything I wanted in that 1st 10 seconds for that moment.
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So, yeah, I totally agree with you. This kind of parallels something I wanted to
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ask you about. I was talking to a friend of mine and we were just
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talking about plugins or hardware gear or whatever. He said something
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which I never really put together. He was like, the audio
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industry is very different from the music industry. And I
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was like, oh, wow. Yeah. Because as an engineer, you think about, like,
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plugins are my tools that I make music with, but you
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never really separate audio products
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from the use of those products. How have you kind
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of walked that line of what works in the
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audio industry versus what works in the music industry? You know what I mean? Are
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there parallels? Are they different? What do you think?
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I think that there are a few differences and there are a few
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similarities. I feel the biggest difference is the
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audio industry, in my opinion, is a much more
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technical industry in the sense that it's tech
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oriented. So there's a lot of innovation and changes
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and things that are happening quicker. Yeah. And I feel like the music
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industry is more like intellectual property when you
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strip it down. Okay. So it's more old
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school and has a lot of rules that never change, like
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mechanical rights, you know what I mean? These things that
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just exist and everybody accepts them because
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it's just what it is. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think that's, like,
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the biggest difference that I feel. But then I also feel
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like there is a middle ground. And that middle ground is sort
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of something that I've been thinking about a lot recently, is the fact
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that so many people are doing so many things
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combined. So, for example, I used to be a mastering engineer.
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Now I'm working as a company owner. There's
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like a vlogger who does mixing, and he also produces, and he
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also writes a song, and there's, like, a mixture that
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is much more mixed than what it used to be. Because
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when I was starting out, a producer was a producer,
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he wouldn't usually record the band, he would produce
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it, and then there's different tasks, and it was
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very separated. And these days it's so mixed
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up that there are pros and cons to it,
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but I just feel like it's a new world
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where the rules don't really apply anymore. Yeah, that is true.
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Yeah. I feel like another fascinating thing is in
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this new world, there are things that are staying from the old one,
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and they're totally new concepts, and seeing
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them merge together, I feel like, is
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super interesting. I don't know. You're totally right.
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There's so many people that are making technical things that are also like
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creatives. There's people that are writing or whatever.
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There's so much intermingling. There feels like so many things you have
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to do for people that are just coming
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to music and they're just starting their music journey. Do you think the
Speaker:
fact that everything is so intermingled now is kind of
Speaker:
empowering to those people? Or do you think it's a little daunting because you feel
Speaker:
like, oh, shit, I have to produce my own record and record it and mix
Speaker:
it and master my record. I have to make my own artwork? Or is it,
Speaker:
like, exciting because you get to do it all? I don't really have an opinion.
Speaker:
I'm just curious what you think. I have to be honest. I feel like it's
Speaker:
more daunting, and I'll tell you why. I feel like there used to
Speaker:
be a few types of people that these
Speaker:
days, kind of, in a sad way, don't really get
Speaker:
to do their craft. Yeah. And what I mean by
Speaker:
that is, I feel like if you're starting out right now, like
Speaker:
you said, you have to know all these things. You could be a songwriter.
Speaker:
That's cool. But you need to know how to record, at least in a
Speaker:
basic level of recording at home. And
Speaker:
you probably need to know a bunch of other things as well. And
Speaker:
I feel like there are lost arts in this kind of
Speaker:
blend of things, and one of them, in my
Speaker:
opinion, is mixing, to be honest. I feel like
Speaker:
old styles of mixing where
Speaker:
you get, like, a song a day and you really kind
Speaker:
of just do that. I won't say gone. It's not
Speaker:
gone. It's still there, but it's not happening so frequently as it
Speaker:
used to be. And I feel like these days, even if
Speaker:
a producer goes to a mixing engineer, it's a different approach.
Speaker:
Where it used to be like, hey, this is the production.
Speaker:
Keep going from there. I'm not done yet. And I feel
Speaker:
like nowadays it's more about like, hey, I'm done
Speaker:
in terms of mixing as well. I blended everything in.
Speaker:
It sounds the way I want it. Please don't change it
Speaker:
and maybe make it, like, 5% better, you know?
Speaker:
Yeah. It's a different craft. It's so different. I
Speaker:
agree with that completely. I don't want to
Speaker:
demean my own career path, but if you're
Speaker:
mixing great productions, it's almost like
Speaker:
stem mastering. I mean, you're just looking to fix some problems and bring some
Speaker:
clarity because it already sounds fucking great. Yeah. So
Speaker:
what are you doing? The only thing you can do is give that extra five
Speaker:
or 10%, and then you pass it on to the master engineer that adds that
Speaker:
other two or 3% on top of that. I think that's the tier of
Speaker:
client that eventually you end up working with. Those people. I think early on in
Speaker:
your career you're going to find that as a mixer, you can be way more
Speaker:
heavy handed because everybody involved in the process, they're making their
Speaker:
first record and they're all exploring what they want.
Speaker:
Nobody really knows. I think that's a bit more
Speaker:
carte blanche, I guess is an acceptable term to use there. Yeah.
Speaker:
It's interesting what you're saying, because I'm looking back at my career and I'm
Speaker:
thinking maybe I felt that way towards the
Speaker:
end of my mixing career because I was doing
Speaker:
great productions and great musicians.
Speaker:
That's a good point. But to go back to the initial question, I don't think
Speaker:
it's like a lost art. I think when people step into this
Speaker:
industry and they're overwhelmed by the number of things that they have to learn
Speaker:
or start doing, I think it's more of a loss of
Speaker:
expertise. When you and I started,
Speaker:
maybe I could focus on just being an engineer. I didn't have to worry
Speaker:
about these other things. If I were to leave school now
Speaker:
and start now, I don't think I'd be able to focus on just the one
Speaker:
thing. There'd be too many things that I need to do to really
Speaker:
reach the point that I reached in, like, ten years. It might take
Speaker:
2025 years to learn all those things. You know what I mean? I think
Speaker:
that sucks for people because they can't focus on the
Speaker:
thing. I totally agree with what you're saying. And I also think that
Speaker:
there's another aspect to it where when you're starting out,
Speaker:
you don't really know to
Speaker:
differentiate between
Speaker:
people telling you what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker:
And in that sense, I was really lucky because I was working in
Speaker:
a big studio early on.
Speaker:
I only had, like, two or three opinions. It was like
Speaker:
the studio manager, the studio owner, and the two
Speaker:
engineers. You know what mean? Yeah, that was it. And
Speaker:
I feel like nowadays, when you finish school or whatever, you start
Speaker:
working, you go on YouTube and there's so
Speaker:
many different approaches, opinions, things to read about, and you don't really
Speaker:
know what's right and what's wrong. Yeah, I feel
Speaker:
like I'm kind of experiencing that as a side
Speaker:
thing where I'm learning how to edit video just for
Speaker:
safari pedals and I'm trying to get a grasp of it,
Speaker:
but there's too much information. It's like I don't know who to trust.
Speaker:
And there's like this guy who's saying one thing and then the other guy is
Speaker:
seeing the opposite and I kind of feel like that's probably how
Speaker:
people are experiencing, starting their careers in
Speaker:
music or in audio, because it's saturated
Speaker:
with opinions. Yeah, well, I think most
Speaker:
cases, I don't think that there are
Speaker:
too many rules that have to be followed. There's definitely rules that
Speaker:
need to be followed. But if you're talking about, like, creative distortion
Speaker:
or something like that, I understand there being 10,000 opinions on YouTube.
Speaker:
But yeah, I've done the same thing. I've gone down the rabbit hole of
Speaker:
Adobe premiere stuff and color correction and stuff like
Speaker:
that for the podcast. Yeah, I guess it's daunting. That's
Speaker:
exactly what I'm talking about, man. Right? Color
Speaker:
correction is heavy shit. Color
Speaker:
correction is so hard. And I was sure
Speaker:
it was easy when I started. I was like, oh, yeah, I can do this
Speaker:
color correction thing. Did you think it was like EQ? Were you like, this is
Speaker:
just like EQ? That's how I thought about it. Exactly. I felt
Speaker:
like I got this, you know what I mean? And then it's kind of similar
Speaker:
within audio, where a lot of times you feel like you sound great,
Speaker:
and then you listen to a reference and you're like, actually,
Speaker:
it sounds terrible. Yeah, I feel that way with color
Speaker:
correction. I feel like I'm doing great, and then I look at a
Speaker:
different video and I'm like, oh, no, this is
Speaker:
so bad. It's hilarious. Well, but then
Speaker:
you get on the rabbit hole of like, oh, is it the camera? Should I
Speaker:
get another camera? It's the same way with gear. You're like, oh, that mix is
Speaker:
so good. Oh, they used a summing mixer. I should probably get a summing mixer.
Speaker:
And then you're just like, there you go. You start tumbling down the hill. I
Speaker:
know this is going to sound dumb to some people, but I've never experienced
Speaker:
that in audio. I don't know, maybe because I started
Speaker:
really early, like, I started as a kid, so I had other
Speaker:
people's opinions laid on me, but I never
Speaker:
felt like this kind of rabbit hole you're expressing where it's
Speaker:
like, oh, yeah, maybe I need a camera, maybe I need a new mic, maybe
Speaker:
I need this, maybe I need that. It was always kind of, I don't know.
Speaker:
But yeah, now I feel that way with video
Speaker:
cameras. And I can totally relate to people
Speaker:
experiencing that in audio. Sure. Because the
Speaker:
people with the widest reach aren't necessarily the
Speaker:
most experienced, not necessarily giving bad information either.
Speaker:
But it's tricky when you think about learning online. No,
Speaker:
but that's the thing. When you look at the people
Speaker:
kind of creating these vlogs and stuff, a lot of them are
Speaker:
great. I like a lot of them, but a lot of them are talking
Speaker:
with no experience. They're like, here's five
Speaker:
compression tips you need to know. And like, dude,
Speaker:
you're working like on six inch k's that you just
Speaker:
bought. You started this whole thing like six months
Speaker:
ago, maybe don't
Speaker:
start with giving other people tips. You know what I mean? Again, I'm
Speaker:
not trying to hate anyone, but I just feel like if you're a newbie and
Speaker:
you really don't know the difference, like, you don't know a difference between a
Speaker:
KRK speaker and, I don't know, like an ATC
Speaker:
pair or whatever, or like a Neumann mic, and I
Speaker:
don't know. Yeah, you're not in this whole world,
Speaker:
you can get really confused. Yeah. And there's things that take a long time.
Speaker:
I don't think there's an engineer out here, out there that would
Speaker:
say I learned compression in a year
Speaker:
right when I started to understand compression.
Speaker:
Exactly. You're talking about years and years and years of experience
Speaker:
just for great engineers. For people that have done this for a long time, they
Speaker:
will admit like, oh yeah, this clicked for me when I was like
Speaker:
29. I just happened to make it that far. You know what I mean?
Speaker:
Yeah, the compression thing, I'll never forget the experience of
Speaker:
sitting behind an engineer and seeing him tweaking
Speaker:
the compressor and thinking to myself, either he's
Speaker:
insane because I don't hear any difference, or I'm
Speaker:
like brain dead or something because I literally
Speaker:
did not hear any difference. And it took me a very long time to
Speaker:
actually understand compression. Yeah, not sure I
Speaker:
do.
Speaker:
Speaking to, like, I'm going to make an interesting parallel. Like,
Speaker:
we'll just say YouTube. YouTube creators that are like sharing tips or whatever,
Speaker:
people go because they resonate with that person regardless of their
Speaker:
experience level, in the same way that they're going to choose a safari pedal
Speaker:
plugin over a insert some other brand,
Speaker:
whatever, because there's something about
Speaker:
that person or that company that they resonate with, which
Speaker:
is also kind of interesting to think about because I think people are just
Speaker:
drawn to different things for different reasons. And
Speaker:
from the outside looking in, it's easy to be like, oh, these are bad tips,
Speaker:
but some kid is getting something out of
Speaker:
that. Maybe it's maybe 20% wrong or something like
Speaker:
that. Yeah. And anyway, just talking about musical taste and
Speaker:
choosing what a knob does and making a plugin, it's weird to think about that
Speaker:
when you think about tips or, like, TikTok accounts or some nonsense like that, so
Speaker:
it's weird. No, I totally agree. And I feel like
Speaker:
also, you touched on something that I really
Speaker:
resonate with, which is you usually relate
Speaker:
to things that you think are. How did you phrase
Speaker:
it? A lot of times, you'll watch something because you feel it's
Speaker:
relatable to you, or you feel like you're
Speaker:
on the same kind of wave of that person,
Speaker:
and that makes a lot of sense. And again, I think
Speaker:
the way people these days, or, like, young
Speaker:
producers, engineers, musicians, approach
Speaker:
this whole world is totally different than
Speaker:
how we, or me, as a bald person
Speaker:
with kids, looks at all these TikTok accounts and
Speaker:
stuff. And I'm not trying to, like, I take back any
Speaker:
kind of negativity because I feel like it's
Speaker:
not my kind of wave. You know what I mean? It's not
Speaker:
something that's made for me, so it makes sense that I don't understand it. Yeah,
Speaker:
well, it's like, I feel like you would probably agree. I'm more drawn to a
Speaker:
mix with the master style video than I am
Speaker:
a tips TikTok account. I think it's
Speaker:
because that generation, we learned from
Speaker:
people like that. And so when I want to go learn, I want
Speaker:
to go to those people again, when I think now
Speaker:
kids are so self taught, having their iPad in their hand, making beats on garage
Speaker:
band since they were, like, six, that it's all
Speaker:
about their peers for them and who they like. Not
Speaker:
necessarily. Not their idols or their
Speaker:
inspirations. It's just a different
Speaker:
mentality, I think. Yeah, that's so true. It's more of, like,
Speaker:
a social thing than how we look at it, where it's
Speaker:
more of, like, looking up to someone and
Speaker:
wanting to just learn from. Right.
Speaker:
I totally agree. I feel like it's less about learning and it's more
Speaker:
about socialization, which also makes sense because
Speaker:
there are no physical places where you
Speaker:
hang out anymore. It's like you hang out on TikTok or
Speaker:
Instagram. Everybody's got a studio in their backyard, unfortunately.
Speaker:
Yeah. You don't have that same community that you had, like, 30 years ago,
Speaker:
where the only place to make a record was in one of the ten studios
Speaker:
in town, and so that's where everybody met everybody. That's where
Speaker:
you learned stuff. Yeah. And I'm sure you experienced this as
Speaker:
well. I used to work in one room, and then you
Speaker:
open the door to eat lunch, and you see a guy that you.
Speaker:
I don't know. Like, met last week, and he's like, you want to hear something
Speaker:
cool in the other room? And you go to the other room, you're like, oh,
Speaker:
yeah, you mic the drums that way. That's cool.
Speaker:
Totally going to try that one time. Yeah. I mean, I used to get off
Speaker:
work at Capitol and just stay. You're just like,
Speaker:
I'm just going to stay here. Exactly. I feel like maybe that's
Speaker:
our equivalent to TikTok. Yeah. Staying at
Speaker:
the studio till 03:00 in the morning, like, talking nonsense with the tech
Speaker:
about how we fix something or going through the other rooms, checking out,
Speaker:
like, oh, that's how they're eqing this. That's cool. Like, looking at the console at
Speaker:
the end of the night, be like, what'd they do? Where'd they move the mics?
Speaker:
Yeah. Well, we're lucky that we had access to that, though, which is much harder
Speaker:
to find these days. Yeah, for sure. And I feel like, for
Speaker:
mean, I did the same thing, but I'm from Tel Aviv,
Speaker:
so I didn't have capital. I had the
Speaker:
equivalent version of the Middle east, which
Speaker:
is not as glamorous, but
Speaker:
still. Yeah, I love walking in my backyard and have a studio in my
Speaker:
backyard. And I follow plenty of TikTok
Speaker:
accounts and I enjoy watching or whatever, but I do miss going
Speaker:
into a studio for six days in a row, hanging out
Speaker:
afterwards, chatting with everybody. I
Speaker:
still like to get out every once in a while and hit one of those
Speaker:
rooms, but maybe I'm just getting old. I also like to sit in my backyard.
Speaker:
No, I mean 100%. I was talking
Speaker:
to a friend before we started the podcast on a
Speaker:
session I did in a really nice room with a Neve
Speaker:
console that we worked on for like three weeks
Speaker:
in a row. Nice. And that just doesn't happen
Speaker:
anymore. No, it used to be so fun.
Speaker:
You finish the session, you go have drinks.
Speaker:
It's like a phase in your life of
Speaker:
few long weeks. Yeah. You make a record with somebody
Speaker:
for a couple of weeks, a couple of months,
Speaker:
you're friends with that person forever because you guys made art together.
Speaker:
And I think people, I have friends that have made records with
Speaker:
plenty of famous people and they still talk to them years later. And
Speaker:
I think if you're on the outside of the music industry, you're like, you text
Speaker:
famous people and you're like, well, yeah, we're friends. We made a record for, like,
Speaker:
four months. It's cool. It's fine. But,
Speaker:
yeah, I did want to ask you before we go. I wanted to ask you
Speaker:
one thing, since we're kind of talking about our studio experiences, you and I
Speaker:
both have had very stable
Speaker:
salary moments in our lives where
Speaker:
we're making music and we know we're having a fixed income, and we
Speaker:
both chose to leave those situations. You at artless doing
Speaker:
mastering and all the audio stuff, do you have any
Speaker:
advice for people that are maybe like, even if they don't even
Speaker:
work in music, maybe they work, I don't know, at a
Speaker:
coffee shop, but they feel like they can make it full time in music.
Speaker:
They're like, at that point where they're like, I think I need this money, but
Speaker:
I also think I need to go do that. Do you have any advice for
Speaker:
people that are, like, right there at the precipice that are like, I think I
Speaker:
want to work for myself? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think
Speaker:
two things. The first one is actually
Speaker:
part of the reason why I left my day job and
Speaker:
decided to start this weird company called Safari.
Speaker:
I guess the first thing is I kind of got to a
Speaker:
realization that it doesn't matter the salary that I would
Speaker:
get. Like, even if it is a very high salary,
Speaker:
it still does not compare at all to having
Speaker:
an asset. I think that's, like, a really big lesson
Speaker:
that I wish I learned earlier in my career
Speaker:
where I would always choose having
Speaker:
an asset over fixed payment. And it
Speaker:
doesn't matter. You can make that same mistake as a freelancer as well,
Speaker:
where you'd be like, no, I don't want points on this record. I just
Speaker:
want you to pay up front. You know what I mean? Yeah. And
Speaker:
what I can tell you looking back is
Speaker:
those points and all these different types of assets they
Speaker:
accumulate, and they can really be
Speaker:
a very big investment in your own life and
Speaker:
in your own self. And sometimes you don't see it at the point
Speaker:
of time that you're actually making the decision. Yeah.
Speaker:
So after having a very long
Speaker:
time with the salary, I realized it. I was like, I
Speaker:
don't see how I can keep this thing going for another, like, 40
Speaker:
years or I don't know, like 30 years or whatever
Speaker:
number of years. And I can't guarantee it, but
Speaker:
I can probably guarantee if I can manage to create an
Speaker:
asset that continues to create revenue for me
Speaker:
in the following years. That seems like a better plan.
Speaker:
Yeah. And maybe, hopefully, things that I can even transfer
Speaker:
to my kids. That's awesome. That's one thing. And then
Speaker:
the second thing is just like,
Speaker:
it's going to sound kind of cliche, but
Speaker:
I really believe in going with your heart.
Speaker:
And I feel like if you're honest to yourself and you're
Speaker:
really 100% trying to be honest with yourself
Speaker:
and not lying to yourself, good things happen. It's just like
Speaker:
the way I've experienced life since
Speaker:
early on, and I felt like I wasn't honest with myself
Speaker:
anymore as being an employee. I loved working at
Speaker:
artless till the last day, but I just felt like there
Speaker:
was something in me that was really wanting to kind of get out
Speaker:
and express myself and do wild plugins. So I felt
Speaker:
like I had to go with that, and I had to trust my gut feeling
Speaker:
and just do what I love, which is
Speaker:
something that a lot of times is like, the opposite of what everybody's
Speaker:
telling you to do, usually, people are telling you, yeah,
Speaker:
don't trust your instincts. Go with whatever
Speaker:
is socially acceptable. You have a job. Don't quit the
Speaker:
job, dude. Yeah, have a good job. You know what I mean? That's just
Speaker:
my two points. I agree completely, and I think
Speaker:
you've got to trust your gut. I mean, we started this podcast. I said there
Speaker:
was, like, a glitch in Riverside, and I was like, every time my gut has
Speaker:
said, I need to restart riverside and I haven't, I've had a
Speaker:
chunk of my interview missing. And I don't know. That's something that
Speaker:
multiple producers and engineers that I've worked with have
Speaker:
said. Like, after I've made a mistake, they've been like, what did
Speaker:
your gut tell you right before that happened? And I was like, not to do
Speaker:
that? And they were like, yeah. You're like,
Speaker:
yeah, I don't know. Something of that gut. Something. And trust
Speaker:
in your instincts. Dude. This has been so much fun. I got to ask you
Speaker:
the last two questions before we head out. All right. Which I believe you know
Speaker:
what they are. But the first one, which maybe we touched on a little bit,
Speaker:
is, was there a time in your career that you chose to redefine what success
Speaker:
meant to you? I feel like I kind of answered that, to be honest,
Speaker:
with safari petals, because my kind of goal for
Speaker:
success early on was, I want to work
Speaker:
with these ten artists that I wish I could. And
Speaker:
then once I reached that in my little world,
Speaker:
I was like, okay, now what? And the next kind
Speaker:
of goal change was, I want to have a steady income because I'm
Speaker:
having kids. I want to have a day job, which is something
Speaker:
that's pretty rare as an engineer. It's not something
Speaker:
that you usually experience. And once I got
Speaker:
that, after a few years, I felt like I want to create
Speaker:
assets, which is kind of the thing
Speaker:
that is happening now. That's awesome. Yeah. Is that a good
Speaker:
answer? That's a perfect answer. Yeah, I agree with those. And
Speaker:
then I know you have a company and you have products in the works and
Speaker:
maybe you can't share everything with us, but what is your current biggest goal and
Speaker:
what's the next smallest step you're going to go to take towards it? I
Speaker:
think my biggest goal is
Speaker:
to find a way to kind
Speaker:
of get safari to a point where
Speaker:
it feels like I'm on a safe island,
Speaker:
where it feels like everything is
Speaker:
working and I don't have to push the boat anymore so hard.
Speaker:
Right. Because right now, which is obvious, it's
Speaker:
predictable. Like, I knew this and I wasn't expecting anything
Speaker:
else, but I wake up in the morning and
Speaker:
whatever I do or don't do is going to be the outcome of the fire
Speaker:
pedals. Like, if I don't answer all the emails and if I
Speaker:
don't plan the next plugin and if I don't do the video,
Speaker:
then it's not going to happen. And I guess
Speaker:
my long term goal is to get to a point where it's an
Speaker:
actual company with other people that do other things
Speaker:
and I don't have to do everything myself.
Speaker:
That's awesome, dude. This has been a lot of fun. People should definitely
Speaker:
check out the plugins. I've been enjoying them. Please take a
Speaker:
second. Share with people whatever you want. This is your little spotlight moment.
Speaker:
I'm not good with spotlight moments. Or maybe just the website.
Speaker:
Yeah, you should check out safaripetals.com
Speaker:
and try the plugins. I feel
Speaker:
like if there's a message that I'm trying to
Speaker:
convey and push forward is people should go crazy
Speaker:
and just be creative and do your thing and don't be
Speaker:
afraid of anything. Just be
Speaker:
yourself. Be a studio animal, which is like a line
Speaker:
that I made up for safari petals and it's
Speaker:
great. See you on the other side. That's awesome,
Speaker:
Travis. Yeah, I really appreciate the podcast. I'm a
Speaker:
listener as well, and it was great talking to you and
Speaker:
you're an awesome host and I enjoyed it.
Speaker:
A it. I appreciate it. I don't know if I'm
Speaker:
awesome, but we're trying to have a good time here, but yeah, awesome.
Speaker:
I look forward to this compressor slipping out into the world. I'm definitely going to
Speaker:
check that out and yeah, man, we'll have to definitely keep in touch. Now
Speaker:
that you have a plugging company, you got to come to Nam in California. We
Speaker:
can go get drinks. I would love to meet you, Travis. We'll make it happen.
Speaker:
We'll make it happen. Amazing.
Here are some great episodes to start with.
