Creating a Sonic Identity: Tony Hoffer's Approach to Production
Tony Hoffer is a 7 time Grammy nominated record producer and mixing engineer. Tony’s work includes The Kooks’ “Naive”, M83’s “Midnight City”, Beck’s “Midnight Vultures”, Fitz & the Tantrum’s “More the Just a Dream”, and Phoenix “Alphabetical.”
In this episode, you'll learn about:
- Making Beck “Midnight Vultures” and how it changed Tony’s career
- Tony’s approach to working with bands in the studio
- How Tony crafts a unique sonic identity for every project
- Why vocals get recorded early in the process
- Adding “grit” during the recording and mixing process
- Balancing the artist’s vision with label expectations (or not)
- The challenge of setting out to make something new
- Setting daily targets to maintain momentum in the studio
- Using guitar pedals to add character to anything
- Reaching out to Artists
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Credits:
Guest: Tony Hoffer
Host: Travis Ference
Editor: Stephen Boyd
Theme Music: inter.ference
00:00 - Intro
01:50 - Career Changing Album for Tony
03:57 - Making Beck "Midnight Vultures'
08:14 - Creating a Sonic Identity
09:35 - Exploring Every Idea
10:51 - Producing Bands
14:04 - Keeping Momentum in the Studio
19:18 - Tips for Working Quickly
25:03 - Using Pedals and 80s Multi FX Units in Production
26:34 - Adding "Grit" and Analog Character
31:00 - Balancing the Artist's Vision with the Labels Commercial Expectations
34:31 - Flying Toy Planes Off the Roof and Other Ways to Have Fun in the Studio
36:18 - How Tony Defines Success
39:33 - How Tony Sets Goals
42:15 - Reaching Out to Artists
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I basically brought a crate of records down to the studio. I played
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something for Beck off a Bony M record. I grabbed a little
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loop of that, like, a little bit of that. It's kind of a little drum
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thing. Looped it up, and then we just started building on
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that. That's seven time Grammy nominator, producer, and mixer Tony Hoffer. Tony's
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discography is full of records that have likely been sonic and musical
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influences for so many of us. We're talking about stuff like Phoenix,
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Alphabetical, M 83, hurry up, we're dreaming kooks inside in,
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inside out, and Beck, midnight Vultures. As somebody that works with bands live
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in the studio, Tony knows how to keep momentum going. And then. So I'm
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pushing everybody. I'm pushing myself. I'm pushing
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just the whole team, the artists, everyone, to just like, let's keep
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moving, let's keep the momentum. And I think by having that target. Tony tells us
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how he's always on the artist side and always working to bring
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their vision to life. And I'm asking myself, well, what is the sonic identity of
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this thing? We're. If you can't answer that, then we're not there. And part of
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facilitating that vision is giving every idea a chance and exploring
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every option. The only way to do that, if. There'S certain sounds that you like,
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you need to know how to either create them quickly or find where they are.
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If you've saved them or if it's a preset or whatever it is, you just
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need to know how to get to stuff quickly. So this one's a masterclass in
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everything from production to distortion. So stick around for my interview with Tony
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Hoffer.
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I was listening to a lot of your catalog this morning, kind of revisiting a
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lot of records that I listen to so much. So I know you've had a
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huge influence on so many producers and musicians out there,
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but I'm curious to know, is there a project or an album that you
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did that you think shaped you the most or helped you get on the path
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that you are on now? A project that I did, I would
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say, probably would have been back midnight vultures,
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because that was sort of the first big milestone for
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me, the first time I'd worked with a well
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known artist, and the first project that came
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out on a major label, and I knew people would be, some
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people would hopefully hear the record, but I would say that project in particular,
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that album in particular, was kind of a catalyst
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for how I ended up doing a lot of things, even to this day, just
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in terms of production, what takes to choose
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how far to go in terms of getting things
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precise or not precise or leaving things a little
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loose, whatever. That established a lot of things for
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me. Yeah, it was amazing working with Beck and everybody that
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was around all the musicians at that time. So, yeah,
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I would say probably that album, but the reality is they're all.
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I've been doing this for a number of years now, but even records that
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I'm currently doing, I'm still finding new ways of doing things
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as a producer and as a mixer and engineer.
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The hunt is always on to find a new
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way of presenting a synth or a guitar
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tone or whatever, just to kind of bring something new
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to the space. I'm always
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finding inspiration with pretty much every project that I do because the
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reality is, whatever I did on the last project that I did,
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it's guaranteed not to work on this
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next project. Totally. So you're constantly having to
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find new things, but a lot of the framework, I'd say,
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would have come from that first big project that I did with Beck. Yeah,
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that record. I was just listening to that one the most this morning because I
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haven't listened to it in a while, and I was going to ask you about
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it later. The way the mix is and the way you guys put it together
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is so cool. That first track is so mono, but the things that
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are on the sides really catch you. I just think there's a lot of really
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deliberate choices that are really dope. Was that something that you guys were talking about?
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Were you making that record like, hey, we're going to do this. Let's fucking go
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for it. Let's leave safe on the edge
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and make what we think is cool. It was definitely, let's
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make something that we think is cool. Yeah, we wanted to
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make something. The spirit of that project was, we're
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going to go on an adventure making something that hasn't been made before.
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For Beck, I mean, I think pretty much all of his albums are that really.
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Yeah. But this one in particular, we were going pretty deep because we weren't working
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in a traditional studio. We were working in a studio in
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Beck's house. So we had a lot of freedom and a lot of time. Maybe
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too much time, actually. But it definitely allowed us to
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experiment and try different iterations of
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songs, and it allowed us to be very creative and to
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make mistakes and try things. Some things would work, some
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things not, but it was good. When you say.
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Because I hear people say stuff like this all the time, you set out to
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make something that hadn't been made before. What's a conversation like that with an
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artist when you're about to go into pre production and everybody wants
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to just kind of change the game, how do you even approach that? It feels
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so daunting just to say, we're going to do this. It's hard to
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say we're going to make something that's never been made before, and this is how
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we're going to do it. You kind of have to just start throwing things at
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the wall, which is pretty much what we did. How I started with that project,
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I basically brought a crate of records down to the studio, and then
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I played something for Beck off a bony M record,
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and it sounded cool, so I grabbed a little loop of that, like a little
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bit of that. It's kind of a little drum thing, looped it up, and then
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we just started building on that. And I think just by nature
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of the choices that we made, not trying to do things that
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we've heard before, I think true north was that let's just make
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something we haven't heard before. So when it came time to doing a guitar part
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or whatever, let's find a tone that we haven't
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really heard before. Yeah. Or something that's
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played, in a way, an approach that we haven't heard before
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with this type of tone, with juxtapose with this type of
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rhythm, drumbeat and loop or whatever. So
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I think it was kind of a bit by bit sort of record,
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and one thing at a time and whatever
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the last thing was that we put on there, we knew that we wanted to
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do something else that would keep it veering in these different
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directions, and then hopefully we would end up in the destination
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that was the right place to be. Yeah, totally. It's
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interesting because this opening little bit kind of segues so many of the questions that
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I had. Let's go, sonic identity for a minute. I think people that are familiar
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with your work could probably pick out a record that you did out of a
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lineup. Like you kind of have a thing. Is that kind of from this
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commitment of just doing what you like, or do you think it's shaped over
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time where you kind of have grabbed things that work
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and don't work and catalog them all? The sonic
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identity, for me is such an important thing
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that I'm just always trying to find what? And I'm asking
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myself, well, what is the sonic identity of this thing we're doing? What is
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it? And if it's. If I can't answer that, then we're not there. We've
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got to keep going. And I think a lot of that growing up, I listened
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to a lot of music, and I still do, and have a real good
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knowledge of music. Maybe I could be a music
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historian for certain things. I'm quite knowledgeable,
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but it's been really helpful for me over the years to
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be able to just have this catalog in my
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head of different reverbs that were cool in
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different instances of songs that I liked. Or
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somehow a certain song evoked a
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certain feeling or an energy or an atmosphere or whatever,
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and that could be cool on this song to give it some kind
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of a twist or a new thing. I feel like I have a lot of
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tools buried in my head, just from the
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years as a kid, as a teenager, as a young adult,
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as an adult, grown up, whatever, listening to all kinds of
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music and having a good understanding of how it was made and
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created. So, yeah, I hope that answers the
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question. Yeah, no, it totally does. Some people do this and
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some people don't sit down with the artists, like, mid session and just play them
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something, see how they react. Like, hey, what do you think of this thing from
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the 70s that I love? Do you pull anything out of this you want to
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put in here? For sure, yeah, I'll reference things all the time, because
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sometimes it's hard to say, well, I'd like to do this. It's going to be
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kind of this meets that. It seems very arbitrary, and it probably
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doesn't make sense because it probably hasn't been done before. Well, there's two
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things. One way would be to show the references. It'd be kind of like this.
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The chorus of this, the way the reverb or whatever it is,
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with snare of that. Or if we can work
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fast. I try to work fast. So let's just do it
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quickly, and then we can talk about it. Which is probably the best
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way. But, yeah, it could be so hard. The way that everybody describes music,
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it's like what you say and what the lead singer of the
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band translates that as. Could be totally unrelated. That's why
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being able to do it quick is probably definitely the way to go. Yeah.
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Because then you see, like, okay, it works, or it doesn't work. Do you
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feel like we're kind of getting into production already? Do you feel like every
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idea should get chased in the studio? If the bass player
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has an idea and it's doable quick, does everybody get a shot to
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kind of try something? I mean, I try to do that, especially if they're good
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ideas. Obviously, I'm coming with a lot of ideas, but I
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definitely do want the artists to have input and to
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bring their ideas, because often a lot of their ideas are really good,
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and even the wackier ones have many
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times been amazing. Yeah. So I definitely
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welcome ideas from everyone. Everyone that's part
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of the group that I'm working with. Whether we get to all of them,
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there might be some where you can kind of tell
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it's probably not the right thing. It's probably not the
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right thing, and it probably would take a long time to
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try, and so you'll have to kind of whittle them
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down to the best. And we'd have a discussion on the
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consensus of what everyone thinks. All right, we've got three ideas, a, b, and
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c. We can do one. What's everyone feeling? And everyone's
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feeling b. So that's what we're going to spend the next couple of hours doing,
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then focusing on b. Yeah. What I wanted to talk about
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mostly, or a fair bit with you is producing bands.
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We're basically there. Right. What's your approach to kind of taking,
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like, a really great live band that everybody
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loves and then translating that into a record that
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is a new experience or a different experience for the listener? I mean, obviously the
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record is going to be more produced, but how do you make sure that you
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retain what everybody loved when they signed that band or why everybody
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went to the show and you put that into a record? When I'm working with
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an artist, I'm always looking for the strengths. So if that's one of
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the strengths, the live show, let's say, and clearly everyone's liking
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the live show, then I would definitely factor that into
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how I'm doing things in the studio. So that
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may determine whether we use a click or not. Like, if they're not using
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a click live, I would assess what's happening live. I
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would try to get a good understanding of what's happening live. I would try to
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see them in person if they were on tour, if it's possible to do
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that. Sometimes it's not because they're not playing, but at the very least, I would
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do some kind of rehearsal with them in a rehearsal room, and I would be
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there right in front of them watching them live. But, yeah, I would try
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to distill down what is the
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thing that makes this so great. And I would definitely try to keep all of
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those great points in by the time we get to the studio.
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So that if that is a thing and if it's a big strength where
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there's sort of a cool attitude or that the songs have a bit more of
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an edge, or there's sort of a freeness to the
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songs that maybe they wouldn't have
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if they're chained to a click or things
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are too clean in the studio or whatever. I'd
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be very mindful of that to make sure that that doesn't happen where things
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are boring, they're not too clean, or they're too clean,
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and then it's a big surprise for everybody, so I wouldn't want that to happen.
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Yeah. Do you ever find that when you
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identify what you think that special piece of an artist is, do you find that
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generally the artist is unaware of that? I feel like some people are
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like, when they're doing their own thing, they're unaware of what is actually connecting
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with the audience. Do you find that to be the
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case? Yeah, I would say most of the time, but then
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sometimes there's artists that I work with that definitely have. They're very
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intuitive as to what they're tapped in. Yeah.
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People need and want from them as an artist, but, yeah. Does it
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matter whether you're in touch with that? I don't know if it matters.
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On one hand, if I were an artist, I suppose it'd be
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helpful if you really were dialed in with your fans. It probably would be a
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good thing, I would say, because then you would. Know it's probably true.
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But then, at the same time, you have to make the music.
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You have to be evolving. You can't
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be thinking, oh, well, my fans aren't going to like this because then
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I feel like that'd be a little restrictive. But I think just having a good
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understanding of what your fans want, as long as it's not
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limiting what you do. I like to talk about managing
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expectations and how you can use expectations to
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fulfill somebody or totally blow their mind when they're like, they
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expect this and you're like, no, that's not what we're doing today. I think that's
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a pretty powerful tool when it comes to mixing or producing or anything.
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Yeah. So along the lines of managing expectations,
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how do you handle? Because we both know making a record can take weeks and
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weeks and weeks. Personalities in the room, momentum
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slowdowns, maybe creativity slumps on week
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four. What are some of the things that you do during a month
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long session that kind of just keeps the band excited,
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fresh, moving forward? Well,
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I have targets every day, and I usually figure those targets
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out. There'll be kind of an overall target where I need to get this done
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by x date. Then there'll be daily
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targets where the target is to get the
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majority of this song tracked, the music part of it
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tracked, maybe even get a vocal. And that's
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a target that I'll set in a way for myself.
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So I may or may not discuss that target with the
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artist, but it causes me to push
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to where we stay on target to get what we
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need to get done by 10:00 or whatever. By the
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end of the day, usually we hit the target or go beyond
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it. We'll get the majority of the song done, if not the whole song, and
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get it in a good place where then we can hear it the next morning
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and have some good perspective to have a fresh listen, and
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then we can do some additional bits to it and then
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get on to another one and keep going. And I think by doing that, by
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having clear targets, and usually I'll establish maybe the night
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before or the morning of, I might mention something like, hey, I'd like to dig
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into this song, song x. I'd like to dig into that
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and get pretty deep with it. The morning
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before, I'll wake up, have breakfast, I'll be listening to things.
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I'll make some sort of decision, like, okay, I feel like we can
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get everything, all instruments up to blah, blah, blah, done,
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and then that'll be my target. And then, so I'm pushing everybody. I'm pushing
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myself. I'm pushing just the whole team, the artists,
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everyone, to just like, let's keep moving. Let's keep the momentum. And I think by
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having that target, it causes us to not have
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slumps and get too fixated
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on minutiae that is really
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insignificant to the target. Some things we can come
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back to. Yeah, there's some things where if I feel like
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we're getting bogged down and it's possible to come back to it
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later on, almost just like, let's just step out of that, focus our
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attention on something else, and then get back moving,
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and then we can revisit that later in the day or the next day, and
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it'd be a much quicker cycle to do that. Very
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cool. So is that a pretty average pace for you, songish a
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day, when you're working? I guess it depends on the artist. Yeah, it depends on
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the artist, but, yeah, I would say song a day for the
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main stuff, and then usually the kind of
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fun, tweaky stuff, the overdub stuff, that could take
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a half day. Again, it depends on what we're talking about
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here. Like, the type of music we're doing, can the artists work
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at a pace like that? Some can, some not. And that's fine,
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too sometimes for the more electronic leaning
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projects that I do. Sometimes a song a day is not realistic because
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there's so much sound design and just
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building kind of the sonic world of the thing and so it
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takes a bit longer. Yeah, but if it's a band
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and everyone's focused, yeah, we can get a lot done in a
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day. A lot of people, they'll start a record and
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they'll do. This week we're doing drums. But I feel like the way that you're
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talking, the going the song by song approach, I feel like that probably allows
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each song to be the character of that song. Is that part of the reason
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you do it so that like, hey, the drums have to be like this for
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this song? Because I feel like if you just did drums to a couple of
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demo guitars and some clicks and stuff like that, you might have a
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cohesiveness that is wrong. You know what I mean? Yeah,
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I've done that before because I've had to, for whatever reason, we were in
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situations where we had to hire, bring in a session drummer and we
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only had this person for two days, so I don't love that.
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But 99% of what I do, yeah, I'm doing it song by
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song so I can set everything up to be
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based around that song and it's custom
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for that song. I don't like doing a week of drums and then a week
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of bass and then a week of guitars for two weeks and synths for
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a week. Whatever. I like doing it song by
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song. I like getting vocals done sooner than
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later. The vocals are obviously a very important piece of the
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puzzle. So I like getting vocals done on the
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earlier side of whatever time we have. Just so I know we've got some
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extra time in case we need to go back and do another
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pass at something or drop in on some bits. Maybe
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some lyrics change after living with it, I don't know, but I like
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having a little bit of time. I don't like saving vocals to the very end.
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Well, it keeps everybody engaged, too. It's like if you're just doing drums for a
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week, you know, the bass player is just not coming in for a week and
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then he's going to have a problem with some fill.
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You mentioned sound design and electronic records taking a little bit
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longer. Do you have any tips for producers on just knowing
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your sample library, knowing your record collection, how you organize
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things, anything to help, like a young kid just work faster when he's
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shaping tones. Yeah, I mean, to work fast, you definitely need to
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know your tools and you've got to put the time
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in. I've put a lot of time in on my own. Before I
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started doing big projects that people know about. I spent
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years of doing lots of unknown stuff and
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my own stuff. And with that, learning my favorite
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samples, or being able to work fast with the
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computer, or be able to mic something quickly, or if
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something's wrong with the sound of it, I know how to adjust the mic
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quickly. I just know what to do and I can just do it. Be a
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to b, get back and keep things moving. So,
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yeah, you just have to know your tools. If it's like you
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mentioned, electronic artists or producer. Yeah,
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you definitely need to know what synths or if there's
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certain sounds that you like, you need to know how to either create them quickly
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or find where they are. If you've saved them or if it's a preset or
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whatever it is. You just need to know how to get to stuff quickly. I
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don't know if you know Damien Taylor, producer mixer? I don't think
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so, no. He always encourages people to go through their sample library and delete the
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stuff you don't like. And that was, like, mind blowing to me because you're like,
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I've got 80 gigs of drums and you use the same four kicks. And
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he's like, why do you have 7000 kicks when you use 50 of them? Just
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delete them. But I can't delete them. They're my
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samples that I don't use. You know what I mean?
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Yeah. I don't know what I've got, but I've got
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a lot that I've accumulated over the years. I feel like I don't think I
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could do that because I work on so many different types of things
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and I'mixing so many different styles and genres
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that I know where everything is for the most part. I can move
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fast, but there are some things where I've only used
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once or twice over 24 years, but
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I'm holding that in there just in case something comes
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up a couple of years from now and I need that thing
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and, you know, it'll be there and I don't know
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if I could do that. Before I deleted them, I definitely backed them
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up. So they're all on another hard drive.
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At the end of a session, you talk about doing so many,
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making new sounds and creating things that haven't been heard before. At the end of
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a project. Do you do any saving pro tools? Track presets or saving
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presets or grabbing drum samples? Do you do any
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archival? Like, these are dope. I want to save these and know I can get
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back to them. No, I never just move on. Yeah.
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Just, like, onto the next thing. I just don't
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want, like, what I said earlier, I just feel like whatever I did
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on this project that I'm just finished. I don't feel
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that that is going to work on the next project that I have. Yeah.
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And I like having things be specific to each project.
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Now, there might be certain ways and techniques, certain things that I
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do from project to project that are the same, like the way things are
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miced or organized or whatever, but in
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terms of sounds, I try to
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create the sonic identity for each project. Like, have that, be
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unique, a unique thing, and not get into assembly
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line, cookie cutter type stuff. I'm not a fan of
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presets. Yeah, well, I
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mean, obviously you're going to think this because you're not a fan of presets, because
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when you came up, you were using analog synths and you were building sounds. Do
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you think the fact that now you can download Arturia and just load
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up every Juno preset you can think of, do you think kids should not
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use the presets and learn how to make a Juno sound? I think they should
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learn how to make a juno sound so you can get the sound that's right
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for the thing that you're trying to do and just have a good understanding of
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how that instrument works. To be very
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causative over that and not be flipping through presets. Now,
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with that said, sometimes there's some cool presets, sometimes I'll
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flip through presets and I'll find something that's actually perfect. It's maybe a
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very complex sound that would have taken me a while to program on something,
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like some soft synth or whatever, but for the most part, I'm really just trying
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to find something unique for each part or each project.
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So if I did find a preset that I use, I probably wouldn't use it
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for straight up something else. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like
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all the technology that we have today is so enabling for
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young producers to learn music and be making something cool, but then at the same
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time, it also enables you to skip some of that
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learning that you and I have gone through. Maybe this is just
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me almost being 40, maybe this is why I feel this way, but I just
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feel like you can kind of skip some of these basic
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understanding of how to build these things. And you can get away
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with it, but you can still be successful. So I don't know if it's a
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good thing or a bad thing. I don't know. Do you have an opinion? Whatever
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works. If it causes them to make better music, then cool. Then
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whatever ways of doing any one thing. There's so many ways of
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getting a cool synth sound. You can do it by
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scratch and reset everything. And dial it in your
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way. Yeah, it's cool for some people. Other people, they'll find
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a preset, and they're very good at that. And they're good at matching that
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preset with the part, with the song. And it's great, and
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it's cool. And I've worked with many artists that that's how they work,
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and it's great. So, yeah, it's just, for
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me, if we were in a room together, and it's like, okay, let's get a
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synth sound. I would probably just walk over to the synth. And just start dialing
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something in for me. That's quicker than to just be flipping through
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the presets. I don't know. That's just me. Do you have any weird
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tips? Like, the most unorthodox shit that you did on accident or
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you thought wouldn't work. That has become like. Well, I guess you're always changing
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things. But is there anything super weird. That you can share with people that you
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like? I mean, I love a lot of late eighty s and
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early 90s digital multi effects processors.
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I feel like they're so
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shitty that they're really good. Yeah, they
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have an interesting profile. They're
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just different than. Let's say it's a reverb or
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whatever. They're just different than a nicer
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reverb. And they're definitely different than a plug in
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reverb. It's just a different thing. So there's a few
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that I really love. And I use quite a bit. And they're
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cheap. Nice. What else? I use lots of
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pedals for various things.
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I'll record a bunch of stuff, and I'll use pedals.
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Yeah. But then I'll also run things through pedals to go even
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further. Cool. And have a bit more control. Like, once it's been
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recorded, I can be more aggressive with what I'm doing.
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But, yeah, there's a bunch of kind of junkie pedals that I
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love. That are just cheap junkie pedals that just do
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something cool. There's certain gear. And I learned this early
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on when I was an intern at a studio years ago. But I
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would basically run drums or whatever through
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outboard gear. And I would distort the input of the gear. So
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there's certain gear that I just like, analog and
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digital. I just like how it distorts. And I'll use that for certain things.
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And it's different than distorting with decapitator or some
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plugin, some distortion plugin. It's a very different thing.
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Oh, I was going to ask you about distortion and saturation, actually. Because when I
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think of a lot of the records that I've listened to that you've
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made, your distortion and saturation stuff is so good. It's
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not brittle and harsh the way it can be. Is that anything you're doing
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after the fact? Can you elaborate on that? Or is it really just
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understanding what distorts how. And then choosing the
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right thing for the right thing? Thank you. I'm glad you noticed. Because I
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put a lot of thought into the grit, basically.
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Yeah. If it's something that I'm producing. Yeah.
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I call it grit versus distortion. Because when I think of distortion,
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I think of more of, like, a saturated sound. And I don't
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necessarily want that. I don't want it to be
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distorted or oversaturated and that sort of thing.
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That wouldn't be quite right. I want it to have a grit
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to it. Kind of like an early stones record. Like the
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early Motown records, where things are kind of breaking.
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But it's very satisfying. Yeah. So, yeah, a lot of
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that. If it's something that I'm producing, then, yeah, we're getting
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that. We're trying to get that however we can. So, again, it's by
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overloading a preamp. Where it's enough to. Where it's kind
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of breaking up. Or it's adding a little bit of hair to the
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thing, to the sound. And then I may go even further. Then when I go
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to mix it, I might go even further with additional
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grit. And it's usually not a lot that I'm adding.
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It's just I'm adding little bits on a lot of things. And so it
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adds up in a certain way. And I don't like to use the
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same grit on everything. I think that's also
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important. Yeah. Because they all have different
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colors. Some are going to emphasize the low
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end. Some are going to be better on the mid. Some are better on the
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top. So just not using the same
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plugin. If it's a plugin, not using that same thing on everything. And if it's
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outboard, not using that same pedal or piece of gear for
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each time I'm trying to overload something. Yeah, you definitely
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understand the character of these things. When you were. You probably don't do this now,
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but years ago, if time allowed. Did you do a lot
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of comparison when you were mixing? Like, what's this sound like compared to that?
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Okay, I like the way that this pushes the low mids. This isn't working here.
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Or have you just accumulated it over the decades of making
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records? How do you mean? Comparison to what? I guess
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taken a second to shoot out. Like, before choosing to. We'll use plugins,
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for example, because it's easier. So before just throwing decapitator on, did you
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ever try retro color next to decapitator next to Saturn
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and be like, okay, Saturn is what I want to use because of this? Yeah,
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for sure. I mean, before the plugins. Yeah, we would shoot
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things out just to see. We try maybe between one
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and three options. We would know that one of these will be cool.
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They might even all be a little similar, but there's going to be something that's
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going to pop out of the speakers. It'll tell us. So, yeah, we
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would definitely shoot it out. And I still do that. If I'm mixing something, let's
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say maybe something that I didn't produce, something that someone else produced,
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but they sent to me to mix, and I'm trying to get
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that grit, which maybe they didn't do that when they were capturing
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everything. I'm trying to find different ways to creep that grit in
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there to not have things sound too clean. I'll
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try different ways of doing that because sometimes the
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plugin, decapitator, whatever it is, Saturn's
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great. Whatever it is, it may be great on that last
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project, but it's not working the same way on the same instrument
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for this next project. I don't know why that is, but it is what it
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is. Sometimes you have to just do a
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quick check just to make sure you can't just blindly
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do the thing. Like, well, I always do this on my drums. There are
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things that I do use a lot for drums or bass or
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whatever, but I am checking, and I may not use
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the thing that I always use. There are occasions where it's not
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right, and so I swap out for something else. But,
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yeah, you have to constantly check that. Yeah. A hard tangent
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here. Before we close. I was meant to ask you this earlier. I feel like
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you've made a lot of records that are both commercially successful
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and highly respected. By musicians in the music community,
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which we both know is not always easy to do.
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What happens when you're straddling that line of what the
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artist wants, staying true to that, versus bringing in some of what the
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label might expect or some of what the radio is looking for? Do you have
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to live in that world at all or do you just make a record and
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it resonates and it works? I mean, I'm always on the artist side. I feel
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like that's the place to be, helping
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them create the vision they have
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for the songs. Me coming in and amplifying that
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vision, that's what I like to do sometimes. Yes,
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labels, if they're signed to a label, then, yeah, it's
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possible the label will have some input on that. For the
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most part, the majority of the projects that I've worked on, everyone has
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been on the same page. It's been very rare. I'd have to
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really think back as to a time where the
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artist is doing one thing and the label is talking about
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some other thing, and there's usually a
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parody. The label signed them for a reason, so
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they have an understanding. Now, sometimes when you get into the third
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or fourth or 6th or 7th album, there can be a thing
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where now there's some expectations. The label is
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expecting a single or a certain thing of a certain way. Yes. They'd
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probably love to have whatever the first big single was that did really well. They
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would love a version. Two of that, of course. But usually that's not going to
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happen because the artist doesn't want to do that. They've
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already done that. And I'm like, with the
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artist, why don't we make a single that's really good,
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but that's something new and has all the strengths that the artist is
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known for and encompasses all of the other cool stuff that
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everyone likes and that the artist likes to do. And I feel like that's how
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you get the good stuff. But chasing something,
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it's just never worked for me. Chasing the charts or chasing
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some trend in music that is really popular now. The music
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that we're making now is going to come out maybe in six months, and that
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is going to be done. That trend will be definitely done.
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You're like a sitting duck. Like, no one's going to be interested
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in this thing. And frankly, I think the
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artist needs to stand in their own
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area away from other artists, not be a copycat or
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not sound anything like other artists. Yeah.
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For the most part, the artists that I love that are big
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to me, they're all very unique. They have a very unique
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presentation. All aspects, from the sound, their
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look, the packaging, everything. It's all very
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unique. And I think that's where it's at. Trying to chase
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something that is already successful, it's very difficult.
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I agree. I have a lot of experience doing songwriting sessions for years
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and years and years. And the times that everybody came
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in with the intention of writing something that sounded like something
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else, it was always an average day. And when people
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just came in and just didn't have to write for an artist, and they
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just pulled up a piano or whatever and just wrote, those were
Speaker:
always the better songs and probably the ones that got cut and that other stack
Speaker:
of shit that was, like, trying to sound like whatever's hot right now, it just
Speaker:
stays on the hard drive. Yeah. So I completely agree with you.
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Okay, so before we hit our closing questions, I've got reports
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from an outside source of a remote controlled airplane that may have
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been taking off of Sunset sound. And I was told to ask if you knew
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anything about this. Yeah, I may know of something about that,
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actually. Now, there's actually. Are we talking Sunset
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sound or sound factory? It could be either. The
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roofs of both of those studios have been used for
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Runway access. Yeah.
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Okay. All right. I know so many people that work with you.
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I know that you're really good at keeping the vibe in the room going and
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breaking it up. But then, like you said earlier, you've got your targets. How
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do you hit your targets and still make sure everybody's having a great time? You
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know what it is? No. I mean, when people are productive and
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when they're producing. I don't mean producing as a record producer, but producing
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a product. Producing the product of being
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a guitar take coming up with a synth part. That would be the product
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of that moment when people are making things,
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creating stuff, they feel good, and they
Speaker:
kind of keep momentum going. And morale is good.
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When it becomes a slog and you're just spending
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so much time in the minutiae of one
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little sound of whatever going down a rabbit hole
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and not really having much movement with it, people
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get tired and unmotivated. So
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I think, for me, what's worked for me is just keeping things
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moving and just
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having agility, moving fast, not getting bogged down on things.
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And then you've got time to go fly airplanes off the roof of a
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studio. Perfect. Tony, this has been great.
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I've got two questions I ask everybody at the. You know, we kind of touched
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on a little bit of this as we went but has there ever been a
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time in your career that you chose to redefine what success
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meant for you? I mean, I'm always trying to
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have songs and artists do
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well. And I think early on, like, early,
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early on, success for me was being able to work
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in a recording studio, like, to make music in a recording
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studio. So if there were a day that I could
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actually go into a studio and work with an artist in a
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studio for one day, that was a huge
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success for me, even. It was for, like, 1 hour.
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Yeah. And then obviously that changed. So then when
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you do that enough, then you want to do a full album in a
Speaker:
studio, and that was a big thing. So, yeah, it's evolved over the
Speaker:
years. It's always evolving. But I think, really, the main thing for me is I
Speaker:
like it when people hear music that I work on. It is success for me
Speaker:
when the artist is doing well. It's success for me when
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randomly I'm out somewhere at a restaurant or whatever, and
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then a song comes on or it's in a movie that I didn't know
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it was in. I like that. It definitely
Speaker:
feels good. And again, it means that people like the
Speaker:
artist. They like the music that we did, and, yeah, that
Speaker:
defines success. Yeah, I think that's huge. When you're
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a kid, you listen to a record and song will have such an impact. And
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I think, for me, I resonate with that a lot. That's one of the things
Speaker:
that really gets me going, is when something does well, and you're
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like, some kid out here, out there is being affected by
Speaker:
this song the way that I was affected by that song 25 years ago or
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whatever. And I think that's huge. I think that's why so many people just keep
Speaker:
doing this, just to give people that thing that they had when they were a
Speaker:
kid. Yeah, there was an artist that I worked with
Speaker:
where a fan had reached out to the artist. The album had just
Speaker:
come out, and the fan's younger
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brother was, I think, deaf or hard of hearing,
Speaker:
and her brother had some kind of treatment done
Speaker:
to his ears to where he was going to be able to hear. And the
Speaker:
first music that he was going to hear was going to be a song off
Speaker:
this album. And they told somehow this information got to the
Speaker:
manager, and then it got to the band. And I just thought, man,
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that is a. Is that the first thing that you want
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to hear? Maybe, I don't know, the Beatles or prince. I don't
Speaker:
know. It's cool. But I thought it's just really cool. That
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obviously this music hit this girl in such a way to where she
Speaker:
felt her brother needed to hear it. And I thought that was really cool. And,
Speaker:
yeah, when people tattoo the lyrics on their
Speaker:
bodies, personally, I don't think that's a smart idea,
Speaker:
but the point is, somehow something about this song
Speaker:
caused some emotion in that
Speaker:
fan, and it caused them to react and to do that
Speaker:
where that song really became a part of their lives. And I love that.
Speaker:
Yeah, I think it's huge. That's a good story. I'm glad I didn't break
Speaker:
into tears or anything now that this is a video show as well. All right,
Speaker:
so the last question is, what is your current biggest goal that you can share
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with people? What's the next smallest step you're going to take to go towards that
Speaker:
goal? Biggest goal? I've got a lot of
Speaker:
really big goals, and some of them, they're not necessarily
Speaker:
music related, but I would say the biggest
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goal. There's certain artists that I would love to work with.
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That would be a goal. And the step is I'm trying
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to connect with those artists by any means necessary.
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So either through a connection I have or through
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my manager or some other way, but it's cool.
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Goals are a big thing for me, just even in the day
Speaker:
to day of making records. Like, I'm setting daily targets and
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goals. It's just how I operate. It makes it
Speaker:
easier for me to get through a day, basically, and to have something to show
Speaker:
for that day, but so I'm always very goal
Speaker:
oriented, and I try to write them down once or
Speaker:
twice a day, in the morning and at night. I don't always have the
Speaker:
time, but I do try to. And then those goals, they're always
Speaker:
changing as well. Yeah. There's a lot to writing them down,
Speaker:
visualizing them, telling them to your partner
Speaker:
or your friend. It's something about, like, you just feel, like, more accountable to them
Speaker:
when they're down on a piece of paper or whatever. Yeah. It makes them
Speaker:
more real. Yeah. And I put them in the present tense, like,
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I am doing this, I have this, they're
Speaker:
present. Not like I want to do this or I hope to do.
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It's like, I am doing this, I have this, and I've done that for years.
Speaker:
And it's funny because just randomly, there'll be things that I write about.
Speaker:
I kid you not. And then, let's say if it's working with an
Speaker:
artist, a few months later, this artist will reach out.
Speaker:
This has happened with so many things, and I don't even know how to
Speaker:
explain it. And it just happened recently with something with an
Speaker:
artist who I just had lunch with the other day, but someone who I
Speaker:
wanted to work with. And then they read an interview that I
Speaker:
did in tape op magazine and then
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they reached out to me. Most bizarre thing. And I was just trying to think,
Speaker:
like, how can I connect with this artist? And I was being a little slow
Speaker:
at doing it. And, like, I don't know, it's kind of
Speaker:
going back and forth on doing it or not. And then they
Speaker:
reached out. So it's just really bizarre. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker:
a lot of people, at least I believe that you kind of find
Speaker:
what you're looking for. It's like if you're looking for
Speaker:
a positive experience walking into the studio, then you're going to have a positive
Speaker:
experience. And I think that applies to what you're talking about. It's like you're looking
Speaker:
to work with these people. You're going to somehow find your way to that space.
Speaker:
And I guess right before we go, last question. It sounds like
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you're not afraid to reach out to somebody that you are passionate about that you
Speaker:
want to work with. Can you speak to that and tell younger kids, like,
Speaker:
hey, reach out to people that you want to work with? I guess the fact
Speaker:
that you're doing it should be an example enough that it's okay to reach out
Speaker:
and say, hey, I love your music. Is there any chance we can work together?
Speaker:
Yeah, I mean, I've done that for years before social
Speaker:
media and before the Internet,
Speaker:
many years ago. That's awesome. If there was someone that I've liked and
Speaker:
wanted to collaborate with, I would just try to hit him up. And
Speaker:
often it's led to really cool things and sometimes it's not an
Speaker:
immediate thing that happens. Yeah. There was one artist,
Speaker:
this artist, Sandra Lurke, a norwegian artist
Speaker:
who I heard his first album and just
Speaker:
loved his album. And I reached out and
Speaker:
through know somehow I was able to connect and we
Speaker:
connected and I said, man, I'd love your music. It's really cool. I'd
Speaker:
love to work with you someday if you ever are in LA or whatever. He
Speaker:
was based in Norway at the time and I think
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two or three years later we ended up doing a record together
Speaker:
and we made a really cool album. It may not be an
Speaker:
immediate thing and it has to be the right communication as well because you don't
Speaker:
want to bother people, but you want to be
Speaker:
enthusiastic and you want to be intentional with what you're wanting
Speaker:
to do. But not waste people's time. So I'm also mindful of that.
Speaker:
Yeah, it can't be about money. It's got to be about
Speaker:
art. Well, yeah, it definitely can't be about the money. I just think some people
Speaker:
are like, how am I going to get gigs? I'm going to email everybody I
Speaker:
know. And that's not like, reaching out to people that you don't actually want to
Speaker:
work with just because you think they'll pay you is a horrible idea. This job,
Speaker:
and it's hard to call it a job, honestly, because working on music
Speaker:
doesn't feel like a job. There's other jobs. Working on a roof
Speaker:
would be a job in the summer. That would be a very hard job. I
Speaker:
would not be good at that. If you're doing it for the money, I feel
Speaker:
like it's harder. It's harder for stuff to flow to you.
Speaker:
When I started off, yeah, I needed to get paid, but I wasn't doing
Speaker:
it for the money. I was doing it because I wanted to work on music,
Speaker:
and that's still what I do. I take projects all the time
Speaker:
that are not necessarily. Some will be very low budget
Speaker:
projects. I just love it so much. Got to do it.
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Yeah, I just want to work with the artist. So
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sometimes, if you can really have it be
Speaker:
about the music, I think things will flow to you.
Speaker:
You may not make a lot of money at first, but it will
Speaker:
cause the money to come. It'll cause the projects to
Speaker:
come. But I think really it's building up an abundance of really good
Speaker:
projects to show people and to get out there. And that's
Speaker:
basically what I did early on. I was just working on lots of stuff and
Speaker:
try to find cool stuff to work on. Not just anything, but stuff
Speaker:
that could hopefully get people's attention. And I was doing a lot of it for
Speaker:
no money. But one of those projects, the drummer that
Speaker:
worked with me on that project, he ended up becoming the drummer
Speaker:
for a french band called Air. And then he played the stuff that we did.
Speaker:
I didn't get paid for it. They gave me literally pizza, like lunch
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and dinner, and I was cool with it. I loved it. We're working on
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cool music. I got to work on a trident, a range, which I'd never
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used before. It was great, nice. But he played it for air, and then that
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caused me to work with air, and then that caused me to work
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with a lot of british artists. I guess
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all I'm saying is just, you never know. It should definitely be all about the
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creativity. Hopefully the money will come,
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hopefully. That's awesome. Please share
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with people anything you want to share. If there's a project that you're really
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passionate about, if you have management that they can reach out to, I don't know
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if there's anything you want to share. This is a little spot for you. Yeah.
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I mean, people can hit me up however they want to find me.
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Instagram, I have a website. They can find me there. They can reach
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out to me. Know. Awesome. Tony, this has been so much fun.
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I'm glad we got to connect. Like I said, we know so many people, same
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people. And I've listened to so much music you've made. So thanks for making all
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my music. Thank you so much. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah. Loved it.
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Thank you.
